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 Phd ki job search???

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Posted on 09-20-11 12:01 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
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Will finish my Masters in Biochemistry next year. YEAH!!! But kind of confused ----job hunt garne ki Phd join garne???
I have 2 yrs of lab experience (university research lab). Professors haru ko kura sunda ta
Phd program  join gara bhancha.....but I certainly want to have some experience in industrial setting. Long run ma Nepal nai pharkine bichar cha tara Of Course!! Phd sakera matra... But for now: is it worth to join Phd program directly????   

Maile BS ni US ma nai gareko if that makes any difference.

Need suggestions from all you guys!!!!


http://www.nature.com/news/specials/phdfuture/index.html?WT.ec_id=NEWS-20110426
 
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Posted on 09-20-11 2:12 PM     [Snapshot: 322]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 guys,

 I would like to apologize in advance for deviating but since I feel that this thread has some PhD peeps, please send me an email if you are doing phd in biosystems or mechanical engg. I would really appreciate it.

syd_acid

 
Posted on 09-20-11 2:13 PM     [Snapshot: 302]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Okey, when you calculate your salary why you are missing the stipend and tuition waiver that you get as a package while going for PhD. You will get about 25000-30000 in stipend and tuition waiver which makes your direct and indirect income above 45000/yr for 5 years while doing PhD. You cannot ignore this fact while calculating how much money you will make with or without PhD. Now, if you do the math, you make a lot more with PhD degree, and not to mention stability and if you get into academia, a tenured track position, that 70-90 K is a 9 months salary. You can bring your own money for research and get paid by your grant money in summer plus you can take a break. There is nothing like 8-5 in academia, you will have much more flexibility than regular job. Ofcourse you will spend 80 hr/week getting less than minimum wages while doing your PhD but it is worth it if you think you can finish it and if you have a passion for the research that you are developing.  It is a commitment of time and it takes a lot of patience to finish it. 30 percent of PhD students don't finish it even after 7 years.

 
Posted on 09-20-11 2:53 PM     [Snapshot: 356]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 If you are thinking about going back with a PhD, don't even think about working. Join a PhD progam. 

I don't think PhD is about money, its about research. If you love your field and want to make an impact, then PhD is the way to go. But make sure you absolutely love your field--more than money and honey! If you want to do PhD for a higher salary, you will lose time and money.

 
Posted on 09-20-11 3:01 PM     [Snapshot: 368]     Reply [Subscribe]
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I think if you read some articles from chronicles of higher education, you'll find that Ph.D. in Biological field actually reduces your chances of getting a better paying job than say Master's Degree. So here's the decision you'll have to make.: Enter Ph.D. work like a slave for years and realize that noone wants to hire you in the industrial sector as you're overqualified and the only option left is post doc, another 5-6 years in today's world, OR work in the industry now and make more money. Of course, if you're passionate about research do Ph.D., but dont' think dreaming that you'll make more money after Ph.D. Its a myth. Professors always always always pressurize you to go into academics as they all think through their myopic lense of academic research!

 
Posted on 09-20-11 3:42 PM     [Snapshot: 406]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Muri muri dhanyabad sabailai...
Loads of info...dilemma ajai cha but I don't have time cause I have to apply soon If I wanna go for Phd next year.
+2 garera Nepal bata aaeyo... bau-aama ko 50k jati BS/MS  garda gardai kharcha gariyo....aaklo choro wanna go back: family ties: but
at least wanna pay my parents money before going back finally...

Also need suggestions on admission (Phd program)--------------
how difficult is it to get into graduate school? Do I have to worry abt the ranking of the university? I completed both my Bachelor and Masters here(no gap in between). GPA-3.6, Lab experience of 2 yrs(probabaly will have a research journal published....first author hoina)...GRE scheduled for next week

Aani looks like very few go back to Nepal with Life science degree. I reckon, I will complete my Phd at the age of 30(if average time~5 yrs applied). Pls share experiences abt possibilities in Nepal if you guys have 1. YES!! I work with animals :(

 


 
Posted on 09-20-11 4:08 PM     [Snapshot: 454]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 Since you are a international but US graduate and have good standing (3.6 is really good..don't listen to 4.0ers geeks), I see fair chance if you can hit some 12 hundred lines in GRE and write personal statement of 4.5. It might take a few shots but that doesn't been you are incompetent. Graduate position is infact a job opening so, timing is very crucial. 
 
Posted on 09-20-11 4:31 PM     [Snapshot: 459]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 sparty, you really excited me myaan, i'm a molecular biology major too, last year in school. 90K without post doc and 125k with post doc is really enticing. looks like i'll have a good future, 

jaibik shakti, 3.6 is a really good GPA for PhD. Now you need a good GRE score. You don't have to do really really good, just meet the expectations of the grad schools you are applying. They don't really care about your GRE score as long as you have the score they want. And GRE is not that tough to master. You'll nail it with ease if you study well for 3-4 months.
Get your name in a paper or two if you can. Grad schools look for your research experience more than anything else. They want to see that you are passionate about science and research. If you have that and can demonstrate that in your essays and interviews, you'll get in easily. 

I'm not sure which schools are good for biochem, but think wide. When you apply, apply to as many schools as you can (since application is not expensive as for Med schools). Choose 3-5 really good schools. By that, I don't mean choose Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, but it doesn't harm to apply. Who knows, you might get in! And pick 5-6 mediocre schools  that you think you have pretty good chance of getting in, and 4-5 schools that will lick your soles to have you in their program. That way, you can be sure that you'll have at least one school that'll take you in its lap. 

doing research in animal subjects in Nepal is very tough because there's no resource. i've no idea if they even do any research of that kind. but you can count India as your refuge in case you don't have anything to do in Nepal besides teaching those punk college kids. Or, just stay in the states for a few years after you're done with PhD, build network in Nepal (with GO and well as NGOs), get some money and then go back to Nepal and establish your kind of work. 

But, as others have said, if you don't like research so much and want to do PhD just because you think you'll be able to bump your yearly income after that, that's probably not a good way to follow. PhD is more about research than money, but money comes alongwith it once you start being a good research scientist. Don't get entangled on all those figures, how much you're earning now, how much time you'll spend while doing PhD, how much you'll earn after you're a PhD, and so forth. It's all about what you really want to do and what you want to be. Good luck with your career. 

(And to tensed guy and all other guys who are tensed like him, keep on counting the figures people, that's all you can do. If you think life sciences has no money, you better stop complaining and go do something else because it's not science that pays you less, it's you who chose science. And finally, let me tell you a simple fact - for every 1 dollar of grant spent in biomedical research, the society gets 17.xx dollars and that's what all IT, BBA, MBA, CA, Executives, etc are counting.)

- Jantare1/DrKanchho
Last edited: 20-Sep-11 04:31 PM

 
Posted on 09-20-11 4:36 PM     [Snapshot: 497]     Reply [Subscribe]
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http://www.collegeconfidential.com/

This is a great resource. Try it!
 
Posted on 09-20-11 5:35 PM     [Snapshot: 579]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Thanks again Jantare!!!
Aani does Phd program ranking play role in job search after graduation??
Yaa..I am not aiming for big schools like you mentioned.....Wanna apply to CU and CSU schools (Colorado): also thinking of MSU :)) But my I have a dream type is Albert Einstein



 
Posted on 09-20-11 5:39 PM     [Snapshot: 590]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Hey Jaibik shakti, which MSU are you trying to apply (I assume there are several MSUs in the US)? I'm in one of them :).

 
Posted on 09-20-11 5:48 PM     [Snapshot: 607]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 jaibik bro, program ranking does play role on where you'll end up as a post doc. but the kind of research you do is more important than which school you go to. best path to follow is to read papers published (in reputed journals of course!) in the field of your research interest, find who did that research and apply to those schools. if you contact the person (he/she is very likely to be a professor) and state your interest, they might even encourage you to apply to the institution they're in which is a big plus because when you state the professor's name on your essay, that'll add more weight to your application. science is all about building networks.
summary: hunt for those schools that have better biochemistry programs/better biochemist faculties and apply to them. googling for schools with biochem program ranking might pop up some good results.

Last edited: 20-Sep-11 05:51 PM

 
Posted on 09-20-11 6:08 PM     [Snapshot: 659]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Sparty ...MSU michigan
aafu chai kun MSU ma ho ni...Share some ideas abt your uni.

 
Posted on 09-20-11 6:59 PM     [Snapshot: 713]     Reply [Subscribe]
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lol tei ho jaibik shakti

 
Posted on 09-20-11 7:27 PM     [Snapshot: 753]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Teso bhayee...share garam na ta...uni experience...is it tough to get into??
Aaani GRE requirement k kaso cha nii...how is East langsing??
Afu kun major ma ni?

 
Posted on 09-20-11 8:08 PM     [Snapshot: 811]     Reply [Subscribe]
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FYI peeps. Know what you are getting yourself into.

http://www.economist.com/node/17723223

Doctoral degrees
The disposable academic
Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time
Dec 16th 2010 | from the print edition/Economist


ON THE evening before All Saints’ Day in 1517, Martin Luther nailed 95 theses to the door of a church in Wittenberg. In those days a thesis was simply a position one wanted to argue. Luther, an Augustinian friar, asserted that Christians could not buy their way to heaven. Today a doctoral thesis is both an idea and an account of a period of original research. Writing one is the aim of the hundreds of thousands of students who embark on a doctorate of philosophy (PhD) every year.

In most countries a PhD is a basic requirement for a career in academia. It is an introduction to the world of independent research—a kind of intellectual masterpiece, created by an apprentice in close collaboration with a supervisor. The requirements to complete one vary enormously between countries, universities and even subjects. Some students will first have to spend two years working on a master’s degree or diploma. Some will receive a stipend; others will pay their own way. Some PhDs involve only research, some require classes and examinations and some require the student to teach undergraduates. A thesis can be dozens of pages in mathematics, or many hundreds in history. As a result, newly minted PhDs can be as young as their early 20s or world-weary forty-somethings.

One thing many PhD students have in common is dissatisfaction. Some describe their work as “slave labour”. Seven-day weeks, ten-hour days, low pay and uncertain prospects are widespread. You know you are a graduate student, goes one quip, when your office is better decorated than your home and you have a favourite flavour of instant noodle. “It isn’t graduate school itself that is discouraging,” says one student, who confesses to rather enjoying the hunt for free pizza. “What’s discouraging is realising the end point has been yanked out of reach.”

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Whining PhD students are nothing new, but there seem to be genuine problems with the system that produces research doctorates (the practical “professional doctorates” in fields such as law, business and medicine have a more obvious value). There is an oversupply of PhDs. Although a doctorate is designed as training for a job in academia, the number of PhD positions is unrelated to the number of job openings. Meanwhile, business leaders complain about shortages of high-level skills, suggesting PhDs are not teaching the right things. The fiercest critics compare research doctorates to Ponzi or pyramid schemes.

Rich pickings

For most of history even a first degree at a university was the privilege of a rich few, and many academic staff did not hold doctorates. But as higher education expanded after the second world war, so did the expectation that lecturers would hold advanced degrees. American universities geared up first: by 1970 America was producing just under a third of the world’s university students and half of its science and technology PhDs (at that time it had only 6% of the global population). Since then America’s annual output of PhDs has doubled, to 64,000.

Other countries are catching up. Between 1998 and 2006 the number of doctorates handed out in all OECD countries grew by 40%, compared with 22% for America. PhD production sped up most dramatically in Mexico, Portugal, Italy and Slovakia. Even Japan, where the number of young people is shrinking, churned out about 46% more PhDs. Part of that growth reflects the expansion of university education outside America. Richard Freeman, a labour economist at Harvard University, says that by 2006 America was enrolling just 12% of the world’s students.

But universities have discovered that PhD students are cheap, highly motivated and disposable labour. With more PhD students they can do more research, and in some countries more teaching, with less money. A graduate assistant at Yale might earn $20,000 a year for nine months of teaching. The average pay of full professors in America was $109,000 in 2009—higher than the average for judges and magistrates.

Indeed, the production of PhDs has far outstripped demand for university lecturers. In a recent book, Andrew Hacker and Claudia Dreifus, an academic and a journalist, report that America produced more than 100,000 doctoral degrees between 2005 and 2009. In the same period there were just 16,000 new professorships. Using PhD students to do much of the undergraduate teaching cuts the number of full-time jobs. Even in Canada, where the output of PhD graduates has grown relatively modestly, universities conferred 4,800 doctorate degrees in 2007 but hired just 2,616 new full-time professors. Only a few fast-developing countries, such as Brazil and China, now seem short of PhDs.

A short course in supply and demand

In research the story is similar. PhD students and contract staff known as “postdocs”, described by one student as “the ugly underbelly of academia”, do much of the research these days. There is a glut of postdocs too. Dr Freeman concluded from pre-2000 data that if American faculty jobs in the life sciences were increasing at 5% a year, just 20% of students would land one. In Canada 80% of postdocs earn $38,600 or less per year before tax—the average salary of a construction worker. The rise of the postdoc has created another obstacle on the way to an academic post. In some areas five years as a postdoc is now a prerequisite for landing a secure full-time job.

These armies of low-paid PhD researchers and postdocs boost universities’, and therefore countries’, research capacity. Yet that is not always a good thing. Brilliant, well-trained minds can go to waste when fashions change. The post-Sputnik era drove the rapid growth in PhD physicists that came to an abrupt halt as the Vietnam war drained the science budget. Brian Schwartz, a professor of physics at the City University of New York, says that in the 1970s as many as 5,000 physicists had to find jobs in other areas.

In America the rise of PhD teachers’ unions reflects the breakdown of an implicit contract between universities and PhD students: crummy pay now for a good academic job later. Student teachers in public universities such as the University of Wisconsin-Madison formed unions as early as the 1960s, but the pace of unionisation has increased recently. Unions are now spreading to private universities; though Yale and Cornell, where university administrators and some faculty argue that PhD students who teach are not workers but apprentices, have resisted union drives. In 2002 New York University was the first private university to recognise a PhD teachers’ union, but stopped negotiating with it three years later.

In some countries, such as Britain and America, poor pay and job prospects are reflected in the number of foreign-born PhD students. Dr Freeman estimates that in 1966 only 23% of science and engineering PhDs in America were awarded to students born outside the country. By 2006 that proportion had increased to 48%. Foreign students tend to tolerate poorer working conditions, and the supply of cheap, brilliant, foreign labour also keeps wages down.

A PhD may offer no financial benefit over a master’s degree. It can even reduce earnings
Proponents of the PhD argue that it is worthwhile even if it does not lead to permanent academic employment. Not every student embarks on a PhD wanting a university career and many move successfully into private-sector jobs in, for instance, industrial research. That is true; but drop-out rates suggest that many students become dispirited. In America only 57% of doctoral students will have a PhD ten years after their first date of enrolment. In the humanities, where most students pay for their own PhDs, the figure is 49%. Worse still, whereas in other subject areas students tend to jump ship in the early years, in the humanities they cling like limpets before eventually falling off. And these students started out as the academic cream of the nation. Research at one American university found that those who finish are no cleverer than those who do not. Poor supervision, bad job prospects or lack of money cause them to run out of steam.

Even graduates who find work outside universities may not fare all that well. PhD courses are so specialised that university careers offices struggle to assist graduates looking for jobs, and supervisors tend to have little interest in students who are leaving academia. One OECD study shows that five years after receiving their degrees, more than 60% of PhDs in Slovakia and more than 45% in Belgium, the Czech Republic, Germany and Spain were still on temporary contracts. Many were postdocs. About one-third of Austria’s PhD graduates take jobs unrelated to their degrees. In Germany 13% of all PhD graduates end up in lowly occupations. In the Netherlands the proportion is 21%.

A very slim premium


PhD graduates do at least earn more than those with a bachelor’s degree. A study in the Journal of Higher Education Policy and Management by Bernard Casey shows that British men with a bachelor’s degree earn 14% more than those who could have gone to university but chose not to. The earnings premium for a PhD is 26%. But the premium for a master’s degree, which can be accomplished in as little as one year, is almost as high, at 23%. In some subjects the premium for a PhD vanishes entirely. PhDs in maths and computing, social sciences and languages earn no more than those with master’s degrees. The premium for a PhD is actually smaller than for a master’s degree in engineering and technology, architecture and education. Only in medicine, other sciences, and business and financial studies is it high enough to be worthwhile. Over all subjects, a PhD commands only a 3% premium over a master’s degree.

Dr Schwartz, the New York physicist, says the skills learned in the course of a PhD can be readily acquired through much shorter courses. Thirty years ago, he says, Wall Street firms realised that some physicists could work out differential equations and recruited them to become “quants”, analysts and traders. Today several short courses offer the advanced maths useful for finance. “A PhD physicist with one course on differential equations is not competitive,” says Dr Schwartz.

Many students say they are pursuing their subject out of love, and that education is an end in itself. Some give little thought to where the qualification might lead. In one study of British PhD graduates, about a third admitted that they were doing their doctorate partly to go on being a student, or put off job hunting. Nearly half of engineering students admitted to this. Scientists can easily get stipends, and therefore drift into doing a PhD. But there are penalties, as well as benefits, to staying at university. Workers with “surplus schooling”—more education than a job requires—are likely to be less satisfied, less productive and more likely to say they are going to leave their jobs.

The interests of universities and tenured academics are misaligned with those of PhD students
Academics tend to regard asking whether a PhD is worthwhile as analogous to wondering whether there is too much art or culture in the world. They believe that knowledge spills from universities into society, making it more productive and healthier. That may well be true; but doing a PhD may still be a bad choice for an individual.

The interests of academics and universities on the one hand and PhD students on the other are not well aligned. The more bright students stay at universities, the better it is for academics. Postgraduate students bring in grants and beef up their supervisors’ publication records. Academics pick bright undergraduate students and groom them as potential graduate students. It isn’t in their interests to turn the smart kids away, at least at the beginning. One female student spoke of being told of glowing opportunities at the outset, but after seven years of hard slog she was fobbed off with a joke about finding a rich husband.

Monica Harris, a professor of psychology at the University of Kentucky, is a rare exception. She believes that too many PhDs are being produced, and has stopped admitting them. But such unilateral academic birth control is rare. One Ivy-League president, asked recently about PhD oversupply, said that if the top universities cut back others will step in to offer them instead.


Noble pursuits

Many of the drawbacks of doing a PhD are well known. Your correspondent was aware of them over a decade ago while she slogged through a largely pointless PhD in theoretical ecology. As Europeans try to harmonise higher education, some institutions are pushing the more structured learning that comes with an American PhD.

The organisations that pay for research have realised that many PhDs find it tough to transfer their skills into the job market. Writing lab reports, giving academic presentations and conducting six-month literature reviews can be surprisingly unhelpful in a world where technical knowledge has to be assimilated quickly and presented simply to a wide audience. Some universities are now offering their PhD students training in soft skills such as communication and teamwork that may be useful in the labour market. In Britain a four-year NewRoutePhD claims to develop just such skills in graduates.

Measurements and incentives might be changed, too. Some university departments and academics regard numbers of PhD graduates as an indicator of success and compete to produce more. For the students, a measure of how quickly those students get a permanent job, and what they earn, would be more useful. Where penalties are levied on academics who allow PhDs to overrun, the number of students who complete rises abruptly, suggesting that students were previously allowed to fester.

Many of those who embark on a PhD are the smartest in their class and will have been the best at everything they have done. They will have amassed awards and prizes. As this year’s new crop of graduate students bounce into their research, few will be willing to accept that the system they are entering could be designed for the benefit of others, that even hard work and brilliance may well not be enough to succeed, and that they would be better off doing something else. They might use their research skills to look harder at the lot of the disposable academic. Someone should write a thesis about that.

 
Posted on 09-20-11 10:01 PM     [Snapshot: 916]     Reply [Subscribe]
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interestimg article, but quite depressing. the question is, if PhD programs were nothing but a waste of time and money, why on earth are all those students doing PhD? i'm not going to change my mind after reading this article because I know what i'm doing. the article is heavily generalized and is not true for all PhDs. even the writer agrees that PhDs in biosciences end up better than others. so, no worries! and I think all those people who drop out or don't complete their PhD do so because they aren't motivated enough to complete their degree or they join PhD programs just because they think they have nothing else to do except keep going to school. and they quit once they get tired of it. if you are determined, know what you are doing and what you want to do as a PhD, i bet you'll do fine.

 
Posted on 09-21-11 7:30 AM     [Snapshot: 1036]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Dr Kanchho,
I understand your passion for science and absolutely commend you for it. I think what the article is trying to convey is the fact that "Economically" it doesn't quite add up. I agree that people who are doing Ph.D. are passionate about science and are there to make important breakthroughs rather than  money. While it is noble to pursue your passion, it is also important to keep a reality check. Have you met post-docs that are genuinely happy? After 5-9 years of Ph.D. (I am talking only about biological sciences here), their salary as a post-doc is pegged with NIH which is around 35K and change. Most of them at this point have family with kids. I just wanted to share the other side of the story. Best of luck to you!



 
Posted on 09-21-11 7:57 AM     [Snapshot: 1057]     Reply [Subscribe]
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i've not only seen post docs, i've worked with them. i've worked with a post doc faculty member, phd graduates, MDs who after that go into research instead of clinical practice, MD/PhD students, and MS graduates. and haven't found one person who'd say to me "don't do PhD". the only complaint i heard was from the MS graduate and that was, "i wish i was a boy so that i can join PhD instead of preparing for marriage and family." they all are extremely happy. might not be the same case for PhDs and post docs in other sects of life sciences though.

 
Posted on 09-21-11 8:23 AM     [Snapshot: 1081]     Reply [Subscribe]
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I've my uncle who's PhD from US University. He was a good Lecturer in Nepal and was in his late 30's that time. He has family, kids.
He spent about 5-6 years in US for his PhD. My Aunt and brother was here on F2 depended Visa. After 6 years he finished his PhD. It was hard for him economically because 20k of stipened was just not enough for everything at that point of life when you've family, kids etc.

He then went for Post DoC for 2-3 years and he's now a research faculty. I think he makes around 50k-55k. Yes, he has PhD he's not economically in good condition.

I have no idea whether he's really happy just because he has PhD but i don't see it that way.

After spending 10 years in this country and making only 55k with age of ~40 years....How can anyone be happy ?



 
Posted on 09-21-11 10:03 AM     [Snapshot: 1139]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 Thanks Racheet,
  I know what u r trying to say. Even I have seen many with family and kids not happy abt their stipend . One thing
sajha basi haru......looks like many people start late?? Is there any advantage or disadvantage of starting early?? I will be ~25 yrs
should I start next year.


 



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